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Talk:USS Raven
Ref? Please see "Dark Frontier" and/or page 652 of the 1999 edition of the Star Trek Encyclopedia. SSs? Is this the SS Raven, or the USS Raven? The title is one, while the article references the other. :It started out as SS Raven in "The Raven" but was later referred to as USS Raven in "Unimatrix Zero" IIRC. --James Cody 18:15, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) Should we move this article to SS Raven (as it was originally mentioned) or should we keep it at USS Raven, as it was referred to later (apparently by mistake)? --From Andoria with Love 10:58, 1 Jan 2006 (UTC) :I vote to move it to SS ''Raven'' as it was originally mentioned. We can presume that Magnus was simply misspeaking out of carelessness, and certainly the ship's original appearance indicated that it was a privately-owned civilian ship. -- Sci 11:30 1 JAN 2006 UTC ::USS Raven. It was called so by Magnus Hansen himself when making his field notes and it was displayed this way on Janeways PADD and Astrometrics in . Magnus himself told the Fedration Council approved of their endavour. This would suggest the ship was supplied by Starfleet. Would they need approval if they used a non-Federation/civil ship ? I don't know if a civil ship would have the same display layout as Starfleet ships. Although it is difficult to make out what is acutally written on the Ravens Engineering display. -- Q 15:59, 1 Jan 2006 (UTC) :::The exact line is as follows: "Field notes, U.S.S. Raven, Stardate 32611.4: It's about time. The Federation Council on Exobiology has given us final approval. Starfleet's still concerned about security issues but they've agreed not to stand in our way. We've said our goodbyes, and we're ready to start chasing our theories about the Borg." The Federation Council was not involved; rather, an agency referred to as the Federation Council On Exobiology was; the FCE could very easilly be a private organization. (Using "Federation" in your title doesn't automatically mean government any more than using "American" in your title means government.) But I can see several scenerios were they'd need Starfleet or the Federation government's approval to go chasing the Borg if it was a private ship -- for one, it would mean going beyond the borders of the UFP and possibly heading in the direction of the Romulan Star Empire, so Federation security and diplomacy might be an issue. They'd also need the approval of the FCE if it was sponsoring or funding their endevour, same as archeological digs need the approval of their sponsoring universities, for instance. Another possibility in addition to that is that the Raven is actually the Federation Council On Exobiology's property and the Hansens used it with their permission. Re: Layout. I see no reason to assume that a civilian ship wouldn't have had an operating system similar to the LCARS system used on Starfleet ships, and I see no reason to assume that the layout would be fundamentally different. In any event, as others have noted, there are concrete canonical references to the ship being both SS and USS -- but the registry was never changed, and "NAR" always meant civilian in TNG. There's no Starfleet crew, the ship was originally called SS, and "The Raven" and "The Gift" both imply that the ship was privately owned. I'd say that the evidence that it was a privately-owned, or at least civilian-owned, ship, whether owned by the Hansens or owned by the FCE, outweighs the evidence that it's a Starfleet ship. -- Sci 09:05 2 JAN 2006 UTC You would think the writers would keep things consistent... and here everyone's blaming for being the "inconsistent series". :-P Anyway, what was the extent of its reference in "The Raven" (having not seen that episode -- at least, I don't think I have)? Also, if anyone actually knows what the name was on the model of the Raven, that could also be extremely helpful. I think we should go by the name that was on the actual ship, if that's possible. --From Andoria with Love 00:50, 2 Jan 2006 (UTC) :::I always assumed that the dual reference could be related to some change in the Raven's status? Perhaps when Raven's mission was approved by the higher powers that be, they re-registered the vessel with a new prefix. :::Actually, the ship has concrete references to both SS and USS. The plaque reads "SS" but computer records read "USS" -- seems like they mightve changed the prefix but kept the old plaque. :::anyone got a pic of what it said on the ship's hull? -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk * I'm pulling this from EAS, but here is a bit more on the ship that isn't included on the page, but is supposedly from one of the logs read in . :* The Hansens' ship was referred to as Jefferies on a display in VOY: "The Gift". The text on the screen reads like this: ::* "According to arrival/departure log from the Drexler outpost in sector Omega, exploration vessel Jefferies left that location in 2354. No flight plan was filed and no further contact was ever established. Last known heading was 237/47." :*The rest is just inane blurb, but we might accept the useful part nonetheless. Either the vessel's name was switched from Jefferies to Raven (Starfleet may already have had a USS Jefferies) along with the registry and the outpost was still using an old database, or the Hansens were there in disguise. * We may wish to take this into account, or get some sort of confirmation to help add to this discussion. --Alan del Beccio 02:21, 2 Jan 2006 (UTC) Here's a screenshot of the text * I came across this myself, just the other day and deciphered it. I agree with Alan's translation above for the first bit, and the rest devolves into drivel. Not even a sly reference or in-joke, just the rambling of a bored production staffer! --Aurelius Kirk 16:44, 15 February 2006 (UTC) :I had a look at the image, and I can barely make out a single word. I don't think that this should be used as evidence that they left in 2354 and were assimilated in 2356. This would contradict information in Dark Frontier, where one of the Raven's logs states that they had been on the Borg's trail for 8 months prior to finding the Borg, and then a comment by Seven while talking to janeway that her parents studied the Borg at close range for three years. This establishes a minimum period for the voyage of the Raven to be 3 years and 8 months, and I think a clearly spoken and direct quotation by the characters (one of whom was actually there) is much more canonical than a blurry graphic that has been described as "the rambling of a bored production staffer". I think that this information makes it much more likely that the Raven left on her voyage in 2353 and encountered the Borg in 2354, to be assimilated in 2356. Additionally, the log only states that they departed the Drexler outpost in 2354. It's pure speculation to assume that the Drexler outpost was the start of the Raven's journey. She could have been in space for months chasing the Borg before arriving at the Drexler outpost. All the log establishes is that the last contact with the Raven was in 2354. In addition, the log has been shown to be incorrect, as it is talking about a ship called the "Jefferies", not the Raven! Any attempts to explain that the Jefferies is an alternate name for the Raven or that the Hansens were there in disguise is nothing more than speculation, and shouldn't be treated as canonical.--Tiberius 08:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC) :No opinions on this?--Tiberius 02:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC) ::Although I don't like excluding on-screen evidence, I think it was decided that dialogue should take the precedence over graphics, especially those that are barely legible. Other the graphic does say 2354 (that much I can make out), it does seem to contradict what was said... so wouldn't saying they left in 2353 be okay? We can just mention in background that a graphic said they left in '54. Right? --From Andoria with Love 03:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC) :::So do we change the timeline to reflect the dialogue or leave it as it is, for the sake of a blurry graphic?--Tiberius 12:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC) ::::Can we get a consensus on this date topic? Unless anyone disagrees, I think the dates of the raven's voyage should be altered.--Tiberius 02:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC) :::::It's been almost two weeks, surely there must be more people out there with opinions on this! is there any argument at all to stick to the 2354 date?--Tiberius 01:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC) Just out of curiosity, I just watched the Raven and I could hear no dialogue that said SS Raven, and I saw nothing on the screen that eliminated the possibility of the SS having a U in front of it. Where in that episode is the name of the ship established as SS Raven instead of USS Raven? If it is just background material that says SS Raven, then the on-screen mention of USS should supercede the backstage source that says SS, shouldn't it?--Tiberius 11:32, 17 February 2009 (UTC) :Yes. That is why the article is currently located at USS Raven. :) And to answer your question from Dec. 2006, we should go by what the dialogue says, so the chronology should be changed, if it hasn't been already. --From Andoria with Love 03:21, 28 February 2009 (UTC) Redux Where in "The raven" is it shown that the ship's name is SS Raven without the U in front? I've had a look and I can't find any point in the episode that shows that there wasn't a U at the beginning. Unless someone can point to a screen shot or a line of dialogue that refers to the SS Raven, I think any reference to it originally being SS should be removed.-- 09:07, March 17, 2011 (UTC) :It isn't, at least not in "The Raven". - 10:14, March 17, 2011 (UTC) Kitbashing I removed the following as on close inspection it becomes claer that the Raven is not simply a runabout hull anbd some modified Voyager nacelles put together but it's own design, inspired by the Danube class design maybe, but unique nonetheless. --Jörg 22:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC) --Jörg 22:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC) :The digital model of the Raven is most likely constructed primarily from a Runabout hull, with the cockpit modified and windows added to suggest a larger scale. The nacelles and pylons appear to be borrowed from an vessel, modified to suggest an older design. This form of "digital kitbashing", popular in Voyager and Enterprise, is also particularly evident in the Mazarite ship.'' :::::in reply: ::Rick Sternbach ::May 12, 2009 at 9:03 pm ::Andru – The basic bulk of the Raven was mine, but it started out for me in a crashed state and it wasn’t until we saw the Raven in flashback flight that we saw the thing fully realized. I did some little sketches and notes, but the flying Raven was done by another, very much like the upper half of the Aeroshuttle. Rob probably knows, especially if he built the thing. ::from here: http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/rick-sternbachs-equinox/comment-page-1/#comments ::Kassorlae (talk) 07:00, January 30, 2013 (UTC) LCARS Why does the Raven run TNG/VOY-era LCARS, when it was launched as late as 2353? Other ships of that era ran the TFF/TUC blue-and-teal computer interface. The earliest we see LCARS, as far as I know, is 2364, with the launch of the Enterprise-D. We still see the blue-and-teal interface in use in 2355 on the USS Stargazer. Kyouteki 20:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC) :The Stargazer appears to be based off of 23rd century designs, which may also apply to its computer systems. The Raven would appear to be of a newer class, and thus has a newer computer system. This may explain the discrepancies. - Enzo Aquarius 20:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC) ::the last ship in with this lcars-style is the Val Jean build in 2332, i think --Shisma Bitte korrigiert mich 11:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC) :::The Enterprise-C also has that LCARS design, it even appeared in Troi's quarters on ger replicator some time in Season 5 (seems they forgot to remove all of it after shooting TUC on the TNG sets... ;-) --Jörg 11:47, 20 May 2007 (UTC) PNA Where is the information that this ship was with Starfleet? Also, why is Explorer preferred over Science? The Explorer ref comes from a entry full of untruths, so where is the Science ref from? - 04:42, August 25, 2011 (UTC) :Response: :*The Raven, like the Vico, has the Starfleet pennant on her hull. This pennant is seen on top of the nacelles and on the bow of the ship. Raven picture - http://ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/factfiles/raven-cgi.jpg. Vico picture - http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/oberth/vico-damaged.jpg. These hull markings identify the original operator of these ships. (Further reinforcing this point, the executive shuttle, SD-103, has Starfleet hull markings and a NAR prefix.] :*The reference exploration vessel comes from the "entry full of untruths". This information, save for the year, doesn't contradict what is explicitly stated in the dialogue and elements of the entry are already incorporated into the page (bold). ''According to arrival/departure log from the Drexler outpost in sector Omega exploration vessel 'Jefferies' left that location in 2354. No flight plan was filed and no further contact was ever established. Last known heading was 237/47.'' I corrected the entry for it said that the ship had deviated from the flight plan when in fact there was no flight plan, and I added the heading and that the Federation lost contact with the ship. I checked a transcript site, http://www.chakoteya.net/, for what is said about this vessel's classification, and I couldn't find one. Science vessel is speculation; exploration vessel is canon. As the name Jefferies is in italics, I interpret that to mean that the 'Raven' was operating under a false name when the ship contacted the outpost. Every other instance of a ship mentioned in a text entry doesn't have the ship's name in italics, which makes this an unique case.Throwback 05:42, August 25, 2011 (UTC) Those aren't Starfleet markings on the Raven. The "delta" is distorted, more closely resembling the 23rd century "boomerang" delta than anything else, and it's clearly not that either. That symbol could mean anything. - 05:54, August 25, 2011 (UTC) :Unfortunately, the pennant on the bow is not well-documented. Amending the article.Throwback 06:59, August 25, 2011 (UTC) :Further thoughts on this matter - :* Well, this is interesting. When they were doing vfx work for the episode "Raven", one of the early shots is of Tuvok leaving the wreckage. This vessel is clearly a Starfleet vessel with the pennant and the registry, NCC-1812. s=voy|gallery/albums/4xbonus/visualeffects/visualfx_047.jpg}} This wreckage is later changed into the ship we know now as the Raven. :* I am reviewing what we know of the NAR prefix. :** NAR-2066 (NAR-21166) - Nenebek, civilian mining shuttle, no Starfleet pennant :** NAR-7678 - S.S. Mariposa, civilian transport, pre-Starfleet :** NAR-18834 - S.S. Vico, Oberth-class Science Vessel, Starfleet Pennant :** NAR-25820 - SD-103 :** NAR-30974 - Starfleet Drydock :*** name of dock ("Starfleet Drydock") - http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/2007_01_28-Trek-082.jpg :*** Starfleet Pennant - http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Space-Dock-003.jpg :** NAR-32450 - (U.).S.S. Raven (CGI model is labeled S.S. Raven - NAR-32450) :*** Starfleet Pennant (?) :*** U.S.S. - specific to Starfleet runabouts, starships, and timeships after 2161 :Starfleet uses the NAR prefix for their assets. Some of these assets are manned by civilians. We have two examples - NAR-18834 and NAR-30974. Another example, NAR-25820, is more dubious. Artwork is in dispute with the model in that the former shows a pennant that isn't present on the latter. However, we see that Starfleet uses this type in the 24th century on their starships, which suggests that this type might have originated in Starfleet. NAR-7678 predates the founding of the Federation, and is not relevant to this discussion. NAR-2066 is complicated by the fact that the studio model carries a higher registry. This leads to the point, is the Raven a Starfleet ship? I am inclined to say yes.Throwback 07:55, August 25, 2011 (UTC) There are non-Starfleet ships using the NAR prefix, and that is not a Starfleet pendent on the ship on screen, so it is speculation at best to say that this ship was with Starfleet. Most of this would make a good background note, but it should not be used in the canon portion of the article. Also, that early shot looks more like someone was using a distorted Defiant in the mock up, not the Raven itself, most likely because it wasn't finished yet. - 21:16, August 25, 2011 (UTC) :The Encyclopedia, and the Fact Files, identify the NAR-25820 as a Starfleet Transport. So, now we have three of the four vessels operating after 2161 that use the NAR prefix identified as having a connection with Starfleet. If three out of four are Starfleet, doesn't that make the fourth vessel a Starfleet vessel? (The non-Starfleet ships using the NAR prefix pre-date 2161, if registries are roughly chronological.)Throwback 12:18, August 26, 2011 (UTC) The Encyclopedia and the Fact Files are non-canon, and information from them can't be used in canon sections of the article, except to name something. A bg note can be added, but that's it. - 18:48, August 26, 2011 (UTC) ::I'm working from memory here but didn't the Hansens say something about requesting a ship from the Federation Council? Would that not imply the ship was a Federation civilian ship and not a member of Starfleet, in the similar vein as ships with the prefix that are attached to the modern-day US Navy? However, like I said, I'm working from memory, so I might be wrong. I'd have to check the transcript. --| TrekFan Open a channel 18:55, August 26, 2011 (UTC) :::Y'all are missing the quite obvious big picture: It's the USS Raven. USS is a Starfleet designation. It always has been. The word Federation is never used like the word American, and always has meant that it is Federation backed. So we have two onscreen references that this is a Federation ship. We also have reference to them disobeying Federation orders, which further implies they are a part of Starfleet. :::Everything in this article is based on canon, and thus there is no reason for the warning at the top of this article. I am removing it. —Commodore Sixty-Four(TALK) 04:49, May 8, 2012 (UTC) ...and I've re-added it for the same reason it was added in the first place. Federation does not equal Starfleet. - 04:58, May 8, 2012 (UTC) :We have a new piece of evidence to consider. The had a registry prefix of NAR. This ship was taking orders from Starfleet. It worked alongside a Starfleet starship in recertifying the Andor/Rigel line of subspace relay stations.Throwback (talk) 04:07, September 30, 2012 (UTC) Canon issues with this article Article says:"This ship was on loan to the Federation Council on Exobiology, and was given the NAR prefix. " Definitely not canon... sounds like speculation. Can we agree to have it removed? - Feel free to add to this thread for removing other non-canon statements Kassorlae (talk) 06:52, January 30, 2013 (UTC)